#506 Why so many professionals struggle to ask for help and how vulnerability fuels personal development, with Leo Bottary.

Have you ever held back from asking for help because it felt like admitting weakness?

Many of us struggle with the idea of vulnerability, especially when it comes to expressing our aspirations or challenges. In this compelling episode, Leo Bottary returns to explore how shifting our mindset around help, communication and personal growth can unlock deeper fulfilment.

If you are still searching for clarity and direction despite all the courses, books and retreats, this conversation offers a powerful new perspective.

• Learn why successful people see asking for help as resourcefulness rather than weakness, and how you can reframe your own thinking.
• Understand the hidden power of peer conversations in helping you articulate and act on your personal aspirations.
• Gain simple but transformative communication habits that improve self-awareness and create space for meaningful growth.

Tune in now to discover how practical shifts in mindset and language can lead you to more clarity, connection and purpose.

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KEY POINTS AND TIMESTAMPS:

02:01 - Welcome Back Leo and Introduction to Peernovation

03:48 - Revisiting Personal Responsibility and Peer Accountability

07:22 - Asking for Help as Resourcefulness, Not Weakness

12:38 - The Power of Peer Influence and Raising Standards

13:08 - Moving from Me to We: Lessons from Collaborative Learning

19:03 - Communication Skills for Understanding and Connection

22:53 - Emotional Intelligence in the Classroom: A Case Study

26:21 - Vulnerability in Expressing Aspirations and Challenges

32:28 - Peer Support for Clarity, Confidence and Purpose

36:46 - Practical Advice for Creating Meaningful Conversations

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MEMORABLE QUOTE:

"Successful people tend to ask for help. They don’t see it as a sign of weakness, they regard it as an act of resourcefulness."

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VALUABLE RESOURCES:

Leo Bottary's website: https://www.peernovation.biz/

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Click here to get in touch with Agi and discuss mentoring/coaching.

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Join our growing community at MasterySeekersTribe.com, where self-mastery seekers come together for connection and growth.

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🎙️ Want to be a guest?

Message Agi on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/member/personaldevelopmentmastery

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Personal development inspiration, self help insights, and actions to implement for self improvement and living with purpose.

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Transcript

Agi Keramidas: 0:00

Have you ever stopped yourself from asking for help because it felt like you would be admitting weakness? Welcome to personal development mastery, the podcast that helps intelligent, busy professionals develop self mastery and discover their calling so you can thrive in a fulfilling, purposeful life. I'm your host. Agi Keramidas, and this is episode 506 many of us struggle with the idea of vulnerability, especially when it comes to expressing our aspirations or challenges. In this episode, Leo Bottary returns to the podcast. I'm saying returns because he was a guest back in episode 128 where we talked about peer group learning. So this time today, we talked about why successful people see asking for help as resourcefulness rather than weakness, and how you can reframe your own thinking and you will also gain simple but transformative communication habits that Improve Self Awareness and create space for personal growth. If you've done the courses, read the books, but still feel stuck, this episode is for you before we dive in. If you have been resonating with these conversations and feel like you are at a crossroads in your life, I offer one to one coaching to help you gain clarity and step into your next chapter with confidence. If that sounds interesting, reach out to me and let's chat now. Let's get started today. It is a real pleasure to welcome Leo Bottary back to the show, Leo, you are the founder of peer innovation and a leading voice on how peer learning can transform not just leadership, but entire teams. Your new book, The second edition of peer innovation, explores how the powerful dynamics of CEO peer groups can be brought into everyday teams to help them connect, grow together and perform with greater purpose. Leo, it's great to have you back. Welcome back. It's been four years. Can you believe it? You

Leo Bottary: 2:36

know, it's great to be here. Great to hear your voice. I thought that I should have had you read the audio book, you know, just beautifully done as always, and great to be here like I says. No one says my last name quite like you do. So it's always nice to it's been a while since I've been on the show, but really excited to be here. Thank

Agi Keramidas: 2:56

you. Yeah, you're too kind about my voice. I know it's very, let's say unique. I will leave it to that. But you know, it's great to have you back. And I was looking earlier, and we first spoke in Episode 128 so now that we're speaking, we're past 500 so it's been, you know, four years, let's have

Leo Bottary: 3:23

changed for you. My hair is whiter now, you know, tell

Agi Keramidas: 3:27

me about as my beard is white as well. Yes, I don't have much hair, but I think there is white there also, what I would like to start, because we will talk about the power of peer learning and all the things that you brought again, into the surface with your the second edition of your book, I would like to start, and also, you know, perhaps connect us in a way, to that episode four years ago, one of the standout ideas that you had shared at that time was how accountability in a team is about personal responsibility, rather than, you know, top down pressure. So I want to ask you, since then, how has your thinking around that evolved? Has the meaning of personal responsibility changed for you in the last few years?

Leo Bottary: 4:37

No, not really. I do think it's about people accepting personal responsibility for bringing their best. It doesn't have to be top down, but I think there's a real peer to peer element to it as well. You know, I've been on teams. For example, I always tell a story when I first was working at Mullen, and today, there it's Mullen low, and I went to a meeting that was looking at how. We were going to approach this new prospect. And the people in that meeting were unbelievably well prepared. I mean, they knew the details about not only the client and the competitors, and the history of the advertising and the psychographics of the market and what was going to happen in the economy, in that sector over the next several years and all of that. And I came prepared to that meeting. However, it was kind of a welcome to the NFL moment for me, if you will. When I was like, wow, I was prepared, but I wasn't Mullen low prepared. And so what I realised was that if I'm going to play in this league, I have to up my game. I didn't need a boss to tell me that. I didn't need anything, but those peers set the example for me about what being prepared in this environment is all about, and they're dead serious and remain so today, about creating the best advertising in the world. And to do that, you've got to be ready. And so that was an extraordinary lesson. I think the same holds true for when I was in graduate school. Same holds true from when I've been on teams or groups or things like that, where everyone really has the capacity to lift each other up, and if people accept personal responsibility for that, if people believe that the power of we begins with me and the example I set, and we have clarity about what we expect of ourselves and others that makes a big difference. And so, you know, I would very much say, and of course, out of that book that you're talking about too, I think the idea was that successful people tend to ask for help, right? And we talked about this prior to getting on the air. They don't see asking for help as a sign of weakness, they've regarded as an act of resourcefulness, and because of that, it puts them in a position, I think, to be well equipped to access the resources around them and meet the challenges that are ahead. And again, it doesn't matter if you're a large corporation, a small company, among a group of friends, among all the challenges that life puts in front of us, we are much better together.

Agi Keramidas: 7:02

That's great. Let me start with what you just said about, you know, asking for help, not being a weakness, as many said, but actually resourcefulness, which is it's great reframing for many people. For someone who is listening right now might be a bit not seeing it like that and being hesitant to ask for for help. What would you say? How can one shift that lens and look more of asking for help us? Resourcefulness, as you said, I love that. That word,

Leo Bottary: 7:39

you know, this is such a big issue that I literally have a webinar dedicated strictly on that subject. And it begins by asking people, how does asking for help make you feel? And I'll use Mentimeter, and we'll create a word cloud instantly with the folks on the line. And it will be, I'll get words like helpless and stupid and inadequate and all of these things. Most of the things that people respond with are really negative. They believe that asking for help is again, puts them in a feeling that they're incompetent and they're not up to what they need to or that they they think about it in terms of needing someone's help versus inviting someone's help. And I think there's some shifts there that can be made with regard to all of those things, you know, and that's part of the journey I try to take them on in that webinar, is to go from seeing it as that sign of weakness to regarding it as something that successful people do. You know we when we turn on our television or look online or watch any kind of a programme, and everything's personified, right? Everything's simplified. Everything is about this person accomplished this well, this person may have been the leader and may have done some great things, but great things are accomplished by collectives. Great. There's a lot of people involved. That person would be nowhere without their team. So and those team members who come together bring different gifts to the table. And so if you are not getting to know these people well, understand their gifts, figure out how you can really help one another, right? That that's really what it's all about. And when you kind of see it that way, it's almost like the the the old story that you know, used to people used to always make fun of men, you know, because they would go into some, you know, town that they've never been to, and they didn't want to ask for directions, right? Because, because they felt like, okay, but these people live here. Why in the world wouldn't you say, Hey, where's X Street? Where's X address? Where's this company? Someone to ride around all over the place looking for stuff, probably endangering pedestrians and other people? Is it not paying attention to what's happening on the road? So, you know, I think it's just practical. People you know, to just say, you know. And again, I think there's something to be said for how we ask for that help. So I typically will mention to people, don't necessarily express it as I need your help, which kind of puts you in that position, but I invite your help. I want your help. This will be better with your input. You know, it's not that I can't do it, it's that it'll be better if you're involved, you know, in some way. And while, on one hand, we think that, you know, and there's a lot of things that go through our minds. Now, if we've asked someone help, now we owe them. Or if we ask something, somebody for help, we lose control. You know, all kinds of things like that. But I think the reality is that if you're concerned about the outcome, if you're concerned about what your ever it is you're trying to do and try to make it better. I think seeking the help and assistance of others is a really good idea. And if you send that as an invitation, and by the way, it makes you feel good, right? If I call you and I say, Agi, I would love to have your help with this, you know, that kind of says, Wow, he thinks a lot of me that I can contribute to making whatever he's trying to do better. And I think that's a nice thing. And I think the more that we can treat one another that way and work together in that way, I think the better.

Agi Keramidas: 11:14

Thank you. And I really liked this differentiation, which you repeated a few times between needing help and inviting help, because it really I think he gave me exactly the kind of answer I was looking for in terms of shifting a lens, because that is a lens looking at US need or invite. It makes a huge difference. I uh, you earlier on, and I'll come back to that also you were saying about the peers that you said that you had prepared, but not to that level for that environment. And our peers definitely will regulate our standards. People are around us generally and in the war and work and at home, everywhere will,

Leo Bottary: 12:09

yeah, we can. We can be what we tolerate. You know? So

Agi Keramidas: 12:15

Exactly, exactly, exactly. One other thing, Leo, you mentioned it earlier, very briefly, but I wanted to ask you, because it is a core theme in your book, and it is that the move from me to we, which you you said earlier, so I want to ask in practical terms, give us an example or some principle of how that is applied.

Leo Bottary: 12:48

So one of the stories I tell in the book is the fact that and I describe it as my journey, my personal journey for me to wait. So I graduated college in 1983 I didn't go back to graduate school until 2006 now, when I was in college, education was kind of a solo pursuit, right? I'd sit there and I'd take notes and the professor would talk, and I'd, you know, write papers and take quizzes and exams and all that you're shielding your paper from other people. You know, it was very much that kind of environment, yeah. So next thing, you know, fast forward to 2006 and I'm part of a cohort. Now. I'm part of this learning team where it's all set up for collaborative learning now, as collaborative learning would have been called cheating, you know, basically 20 plus years earlier, and here I am now in this environment where we're supposed to help one another. And the reality is that in that environment, we learned most from one another. I was worked with an incredible group of mid to senior level executives, amazing people, second from the material and third from the professors. And by the way, the professors wouldn't dispute that characterization at all. It's the very thing they were trying to set up that was their intent, and that was their belief. And they understand that we do learn better when we learn together, and largely because of two reasons, a we can help one another absorb that information better, right? We know based on collaborative learning theory that you know, if you and I, for example, were to read an 800 word blog post, we're going to remember, if you think about it in terms of the Ebbinghaus forgetting curve, right? About 28% of it for about 24 to 48 hours. If read it a second time, the number goes to 46% put a group together after having read that one time, and now all of a sudden, we talk about it, we grapple with the concepts, we share ideas. Now the number goes to 69% it basically creates neural pathways for us that allow us to engage and retain information better. That's number one. The second piece is that usually how we engage one another provides us in a completely different set of lessons. And this is where we have kind of intentional learning, right, taking in content by watching a video, hearing a speaker reading a book, or whatever it may happen to be. But then there's also collateral. Learning. And that comes from John Dewey in the 1930s where he basically said, you know those lessons that we received directly, those are really important. But you know what the real lessons are? What we learn from, how we learn so, how we engage one another. Teaches us things like, how do we be more present? How do we be listen more carefully? How do we ask more precise questions? And I think best of all, what it teaches us, because every one of us has the the tendency when we hear someone make a statement about something or do something, we do one of three things. We rush to judgement, we jump to conclusions, we make assumptions about where this is all coming from. Okay, if you can actually take a breath, lean into your curiosity, ask questions and listen for understanding, as opposed to trying to be right, that makes an enormous difference in terms of how we can see one another and how we can see the world. So I think that the impact of this type of learning, which I experienced in graduate school. And of course, you know, quickly fast forward by graduated in in 2008 by 2010 I was working at Vistage, which assembles and facilitates peer advisory groups in 40 countries around the world for CEOs, business leaders and all of that. And really got some real, firsthand, you know, experience there. And of course, since worked with, you know, so many other organisations around the world who, who lead these groups. And then you see how easily these basic principles that we've been talking about, which really in our discussion so far, haven't been corporate specific, if you think about it, they're just general life stuff. How this applies. If we can bring this and be more intentional about bringing this to our teams, it makes all the difference in the world. And it is, and it is basic stuff. And people say, Well, this seems a lot like common sense. I'm like, well, it really is. I wish we all just did it more often. You know, it's, it's always interesting. If you think about it, if you you go, let's say you're watching a football game on TV, and I'm talking to Mark in football, I guess, is my example. But, you know, at halftime, they'll interview the coach and they'll say, Well, what do you need to do, you know, to get back into this game in the second half? Well, it's typically not some grand strategy. We have to block, we have to tackle, we have to hold on to the football and don't turn it over. All of these basic things that it all comes down to, you know, doing those things well that is going to make a difference between you coming back in a football game or not. And I think that's very much the same in life.

Agi Keramidas: 17:35

Thank you. I agree very much that these principles are irrelevant of whether you are in a corporate environment or you are at home having a conversation with your children or your spouse, because the principles apply the same what you were saying earlier about not judging or responding out of the need to prove you something rather than understanding. These are all qualities that are very much applicable always, I think, taking a moment to listen what the other person say, and having the awareness to process that before you give your response, I think it is, you know, a skill. All these are skills for, I would say, personal development. I mean, since the podcast is personal development, it's, I think they are all, you know, expanded and you we can use them. Yeah,

Leo Bottary: 18:44

we're not really taught, if you think about it, to listen for understanding. I mean, think about the fact that when I talk with most people and I ask them, Did you grow up in a household where you were discouraged, let's say, by your parents to avoid conversations in social situations about politics and religion, absolutely everybody, every hand of the room will go up, yes. So now, when you think about that, we are now set up to be incapable of having those conversations, because we believe it's going to be a pitched battle. We believe it's about who's right, who isn't, and all this other kind of stuff. Think about if we were taught at a much younger age to be able to have those conversations. Now, I get why parents do this. Basically, parents don't want their kind of nascent political or religious views to be under attack by other people and and feel like their kid isn't necessarily equipped to have that conversation or whatever. And they, in some respects, are kind of productive in in that way, right or wrong. I think that's a lot of the reason for it, but unfortunately, it puts us in a position again, where we are not wired now to be able to have those conversations in a way that is really about, Hey, I just want to understand where your politics comes from. I want to understand the role faith plays in your life. And what that means for you. It doesn't mean I have to agree with it. It doesn't mean any of those things. It just means I'm going to be curious, ask questions, and get an understanding and respect other people and where they come from. And I think if we could do a better job at that, and start this process for a lot younger. You know, it might be helpful as well.

Agi Keramidas: 20:25

I think it is our duty to do this and every other thing in our power to be better people,

Leo Bottary: 20:35

to grow. You know, when I bring up this thing about little kids, my granddaughter, who's in the second grade, is in a classroom where the teacher, her name is Shanna roll, does a thing every morning with the kids, and it's called clearings and celebration. And so they begin every day. Does anyone have anything to clear? And the idea here would be the kid might say, Yeah, my dog is sick, or I cut myself yesterday, and it's kind of bothering me, or something is kind of going on. And people listen to that student and they get to say, okay, just want to let you know this is going on. And the idea is that despite what I've got going on, as big or small as that may be, I am going to bring my best self today, but you least you know what's happening and what's going on with that person. Then with celebrations, it becomes, Hey, I just finished a book, or it's my mom's birthday today, or something like that, and you get that lift. You know of everyone about what's going in their life and why they may be, you know, where they are, but it's a real lesson in empathy, in meeting people where they are, in understanding and not making fun of other people. And you know, I mean, it sets an unbelievable tone, not just for that classroom, but I think it sets a foundation for those kids in life that is extraordinary, and I hope, continues to be practised as she moves in other grades. I'm not sure she isn't the only teacher in that school who does this, but I thought it was an extraordinary practice. I've heard about it before, but I never heard it implemented in a second grade classroom quite the way she does it and how incredibly effective it is. So you know, again, I think, you know, kids have a real capacity to be able to do so much, you know, and have those conversations and really listen and care about one another. And, you know, I think that's a really great lesson that she's bringing forward there,

Agi Keramidas: 22:32

definitely. And you know what came to me when you were describing this game? I can because their children, I suppose they can also, they probably see it as a game, rather than you and I now look at it very seriously and analytically, but I think one other thing that it teaches and allows them is the fact that the environment is Safe to express. You know, their learning, which might be some vulnerable moment celebration, which, you know, sometimes you might wonder, is that really worth celebrating? So it is. It means this ability to because when you are in a safe environment like this, and you can express really what you want without being judged. I think that will make a huge difference, not only further down the line, but always. I think,

Leo Bottary: 23:30

you know, one of the things that's interesting that you say too is it speaks to the idea that we can not only feel vulnerable when we're sharing challenges that are happening in our lives, but I think just as much, maybe more so trying to share our aspirations, because how vulnerable it is, right? Like, if I shared an aspiration that I want to achieve this in my life, and someone's looking at me like, really, like, I don't think that's going to happen, you know? I mean, how devastating that would be, right? So people tend to hold that stuff in. They don't want to put themselves out there that they're looking to do. Because, unfortunately, you know, they feel that a reaction, not by everybody, but at least by some people, might not be, Hey, how can we help you make that happen? It's, I don't know about that could be, could be a high bar for you, you know. So it's, it's interesting, and I think we've got to be, try to be good at both, I think. And this is true in with CEO peer advisory groups, you're right up there, you talk about, hey, what are your aspirations for yourself or this company, or for what you want to contribute to the world? That's a vulnerable place to go, but yet, I think it's really important. And you know, at the end of the day, we can't help one another if we don't know what help we need. You know, I couldn't be of assistance to you if I don't know what you're looking for, and vice versa. And I think having line of sight and visibility, i. About what we want out of life. You know, becomes really important.

Agi Keramidas: 25:05

You know, I have very personal knowledge of or experience of what you were describing, because 10 years ago, I was that person that would not share aspirations or problems because, you know, fear of judgement and this and that. I've done quite a lot of, you know, work on that to figure it out, but I have been there. I know that's very well, and I know how liberating and how pretty much the phrase that comes to mind, it's the doors that open actually, when you speak and you say what's on your mind, because, as you said, unless you say, people don't know what is going they can't help you. They can't share with you their whatever it is unless, unless you say it. So I

Leo Bottary: 26:01

think liberating is a great word, and I think it can be cathartic for a lot of folks. You know, a lot of times when we talk about people bringing challenges or aspirations of whatever, even in the context of a CEO peer group, I would suggest to them that to take control of the situation in terms of being clear with people about what you're looking for. It may be that you just want to be heard, that you just want them to listen to you for 10 or 15 minutes. There's something on your mind, and a lot of times, people won't bring certain things to a group because they're kind of not ready to deal with it. They get so much going on in their life right now. They just don't have the bandwidth to feel like they could put themselves out there with a group of people now be expected to actually have to deal with it, right? So, but if you can actually give somebody the space and the grace just to talk out loud about something, you'd be amazed how often that person will come back a couple months later and say, remember that thing I brought up a few months ago. I'm actually ready to tackle that now. Or secondly, they may just say they're not looking for advice, but they would love to know if anyone has any experiences that align with the challenge that they just described, or aligned with the goal that they're trying to achieve. People around the table without overtly trying to make very direct connections. Just say, hey, based on what I've heard, here's here's was my challenge or and here's what I did, and here's what the result was. And now I kind of collect those things around the room, and I feel like, okay, here's what resonated with me, and maybe here's what I feel is right for me in my situation and what I want to do. And then third, maybe you, you would love all the advice anyone's willing to give you, because you don't have a clue, you know, and you're just like, Hey, bring it. But at least you're inviting that now you are giving them the stage to do that. And the only thing I do suggest for the advice givers, though, is don't give advice like most people give it, which is, you know what you should do, you know what I would do if I were you. It's like, you know, you don't even own that. You know you're on your heels. It's a directive. It's not anything other than that, but just to imagine yourself as if you were passing out appetisers at a wedding reception. You know, everyone's clustered together and they've got their drinks, and someone goes by and there's a little tray, and they just kind of come near the group and people. You take one, you don't take one, no harm, no foul, no big deal. And if you think about giving advice that way, it might be, you know, something as easy as, you know, Agi. Have you considered such and such, or have you thought about x or, you know, you just kind of floated out there, you know, you're not directing anyone to do anything. You're just putting something out there and allowing them to actually take it, and allowing them to think to themselves, I can take this, and I can own this. And I think that, you know, again, those kinds of things can help really open up a conversation. If we're willing to be clear with people about, I just want to be heard. I would love your experiences. I'll take all the advice you got, whatever it happens to be. And again, as advice givers, I think, be mindful to make sure that that lands in a way that the person can actually accept it and take it on as their own.

Agi Keramidas: 29:13

That's a big topic on its own, for sure. You know, giving us solicited. That's the word that came to my mind. Advice, right? Yeah,

Leo Bottary: 29:24

don't give don't do that. Be wait to be asked. You know, I think the other thing too, is we can get into conversations with people pretty frequently. Let's say someone calls you and they've got something going on in their life. Sometimes, what can be people's tendency, and I've certainly done it many times, because someone will be telling their story, talking about what they're going through, and I might find an opening to say, You know what I've been through, something very similar. But what I've done in that moment is, if I've just hijacked the conversation away from that person, which is not great, they just want to be heard. They don't want to share. They want to share their story. My attempt at empathy at that moment. Is not great. Instead, what we should be doing, because, again, that becomes unsolicited, is using the fact, if I'm thinking, Okay, I've been through this at some point in my life, I don't have to introduce that and hijack the conversation. What I should be doing is using that experience to ask better questions and to help them continue with their story, and help to keep it about them. At some point in time, it's very likely that that person will say, hey, Leo, has anything ever happened to you that's similar to what I'm describing? A matter of fact, it has, but now they've just given me the stage. I didn't hijack it from them, and so it's just simple things like that that allow for you to really kind of respect who's speaking and how to handle that conversation in a way that's truly beneficial for them and not self indulgent. You know, for you,

Agi Keramidas: 30:55

that's very Thank you, very useful. You know, lesson in communication. I think we all know people like the ones that you described that, hi, it's well intended,

Leo Bottary: 31:07

you know, I get it, but it's yes, but yes, it doesn't

Agi Keramidas: 31:11

land. Leo, there is some something specific. I have a question. There is someone that comes to my mind, let's say the person watching this conversation or listening this conversation, and you know, they have done the courses, they have been to, the retreats, the deep dives, the books, whatever, but still are on this seeking of deeper fulfilment or purpose. So my question to you is, how can specifically peer based learning move them towards that direction of you know, taking meaningful action and living more purposefully. I hope my question makes sense.

Leo Bottary: 32:07

It really does. In fact, it's very relevant to I've been an adjunct professor at Rutgers for quite some time now. I was at Seton Hall prior to that, beginning in 2008 in 2015 I became an adjunct professor at Rutgers, and actually with a few other professors, we each have different groups, if you will, but I teach this course on personal branding, and part of it begins with a real self reflection. Who am I? What do I care about? What am I? What What gifts do I have? What difference can I make in the world? What does that look like in a way that's unfettered, you know, from all of the feelings of, you know, vulnerability or things like that, and get them to identify those things and have some clarity about that for themselves, but but put them in a peer group where they talk about that with one another, and you create this safe space for them to be able to have those conversations and support one another in what they do. It's amazing how that goes, and how incredible people and how generous people are with one another, when you can give them the opportunity to a engage in the reflection and be share what they're coming up with, and then it comes down to, okay, now, what do we want to do about it? And I think it's particularly important for so many of the graduate students. Of course, they're all different ages, but let's face it, you know, a majority of them are too far removed from having graduated college. You know, maybe they took a couple of years off to work, or maybe they went straight into graduate school or whatever. But either way, they're trying to apply for jobs in the workplace. And too many people see themselves as kind of victims in that process, right? They see this massive, you know, construct out there and and they, they, they're trying to figure out, hey, if someone could just give me a job, that'd be great. That's my hope. They don't think about it in terms of, what do I want to do, where do I want to work? How do I want to apply my gifts? And truly, kind of take a little more control, you know, over that situation, and have the confidence to do that. And but I think it begins with having a level of clarity. And I think it begins with practising with others in terms of sharing what those aspirations are, what those goals are all about, and maybe what would be required for me to kind of shore up areas where I could have weaknesses and get better, or areas where I can double down on my strengths. And so that exercise alone, I think, is really powerful, and we don't have, you don't have to be in a graduate school class to do it. You know, you could put a few of your friends together and and, you know, three or four people sitting around a table saying, hey, what do we want to be doing? Are we are we doing what we want with our lives right now? And. And and have a real conversation about that. And, you know, so I think again, we get back to words like liberating and empowering and unifying, right when, when you get into these kinds of things. And so I think for anyone listening out there, it does begin this journey from me to we. Starts with you. It starts with, you know, it, you know, I think when we talked before too, we were drawing a little bit from the book what anyone can do. And one of the concepts in there was self help. Doesn't mean by yourself help, you know? I mean, we have to work on us first. It is a little bit like the aeroplane when they tell you, put the oxygen mask on yourself before trying to help others, because if you're not 100% you're not going to be very useful to the people around you. I think it's a very similar situation here. You know, engage in that reflection. Be thinking about what I can do. Share that with others. Be of service to others. Be generous with others in terms of helping them, you know, achieve their aspirations or meet some of their challenges. And again, this is where we are so much better together, because left to our own devices. You know, I think it's a, it's a big, complex world out there. And I think we can use, we're back to the word help. We can use all the help we can get. So let's, let's, let's recognise that.

Agi Keramidas: 36:26

I will, you know, highlight once more something you said earlier about inviting help versus needing help. I think that that struck a chord there. Leo, where would you like to direct the listener of the conversation to find out more about your book and what you do? Also sure

Leo Bottary: 36:51

you can go to peernovation, dot biz, which is the website, and of course, any information about the books, about what peer innovation is, about, how may be relevant to you or your business, or whatever that may look like in any way. Certainly there connect with me on LinkedIn. You know, always love to connect with people on LinkedIn. And of course, the book is available on Amazon and anywhere, you know, books are sold. And I do feel like this second edition book, particularly the e book, 399, you know, fairly low investment, I think, in terms of at least accessing the content and thinking about, what can I apply in my life? What can I bring to others, and what does that look like? So, yeah, I invite people to do any of those things or all of the above.

Agi Keramidas: 37:40

Thank you very much. And you know, I was just thinking right now that it is this four years that have passed since our previous conversation. First of all, they don't feel like that, but the point I wanted to make was how nice it is and how for me in this position, when I have a conversation again with someone after such a long time, which means that the message was powerful. And you know, having this conversation now because we are both quite different after these four years with more grey hair, as we were saying earlier. So it is fantastic to have that and see the difference in the involvement and have again this conversation. So having said, that was probably a very complicated way to say, thank you very much. I appreciate you for being here and having this conversation with me, Leo and the wisdom that you shared. I will leave it to you for your parting words. I don't know if you

Leo Bottary: 39:00

will. I just appreciate you having me. This was, I think, a wonderful conversation. Be Kind of interesting actually, to listen back to the conversation we had back four years ago. And my guess is that both of us would be happier with this conversation than the one we had back then. And I bet that's true, you know. So, yeah, so it makes me kind of want to have a look at that, but it was, you know, I'm just delighted to be here and appreciate our time together. So thank you so much.

Agi Keramidas: 39:29

I would like to finish with your parting wisdom to the listener, someone who has listened to us for over half an hour now, what would you tell to him or her?

Leo Bottary: 39:44

I think when we get up every day, it would be nice to have clarity about what do I expect of myself in terms of how I deal with others, and how can I be intentional about that, about whatever that means for me. Because. Having some level of intentionality and keeping the values and behaviours that we hold dear to the forefront, and making sure we're living those each and every day, I think, becomes essential, because otherwise it becomes too easy to have those things go in the background. You know, we we are exposed to so much content and so many things that it's just easy to move from one thing to the next to the next to the next. And I think in many respects, we have to be thinking about, how are we intentional about what we want from ourselves and the impact we have on others?

Agi Keramidas: 40:41

I hope you found this episode enlightening. If you have been resonating with these conversations and feel like you are at a crossroads in your life, I offer one to one coaching to help you gain clarity and step into your next chapter with confidence. You if that sounds interesting, reach out to me and let's have a conversation until next time. Stand Out. Don't fit in.