#512 Personal development isn’t enough: why vertical development drives real change and self-mastery, with Ryan Gottfredson.

Are you doing all the right things to grow, but still feel stuck?

In today's fast-paced world, personal and professional growth is often measured by how much we do. But what if the real key to transformation lies not in doing more, but in being more? This episode with bestselling author and vertical development expert Dr. Ryan Gottfredson explores the often-overlooked "being side" of personal evolution - helping you uncover why success sometimes feels out of reach despite your best efforts.

• Discover the crucial difference between horizontal and vertical development, and why knowing it could change everything.
• Learn practical strategies to expand your "window of tolerance" and develop emotional resilience.
• Understand how mindsets, trauma, and internal programming shape your potential more than any skillset can.

Press play now to learn how upgrading your inner world can unlock the transformation you’ve been searching for.

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KEY POINTS AND TIMESTAMPS:

02:01 - Reconnecting After Five Years: A Journey of Growth

05:42 - Doing Better vs. Being Better: Understanding the Core Distinction

09:35 - Recognizing When You're Stuck: The Role of the Being Side

13:20 - Window of Tolerance: A Measure of Emotional Capacity

15:34 - Vertical vs. Horizontal Development: Tools vs. Transformation

18:15 - The Three Steps to Elevating Your Being

19:59 - Surface-Level Practices: Breathing, Meditation, and More

21:59 - Deep-Level Work: Mindsets and Inner Programming

25:10 - The Deepest Work: Trauma, Culture, Neurodivergence

31:37 - The Foundation of Self-Awareness and Real Transformation

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MEMORABLE QUOTE:

"Vertical development isn't about adding tools to our tool belt. It's about upgrading the person wearing the tool belt."

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VALUABLE RESOURCES:

Ryan Gottfredson's website: https://ryangottfredson.com/

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Click here to get in touch with Agi and discuss mentoring/coaching.

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Join our growing community at MasterySeekersTribe.com, where self-mastery seekers come together for connection and growth.

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🎙️ Want to be a guest?

Message Agi on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/member/personaldevelopmentmastery

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Personal development inspiration, self help insights, and actions to implement for self improvement and living with purpose.

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Transcript

Agi Keramidas: 0:00

Ever feel like you've earned the credentials, done the courses, invested in your self improvement? In other words, ticked every box, yet you're still stuck not really moving forward in life or leadership? Welcome to personal development mastery, the podcast that helps intelligent, busy professionals develop self mastery and gain clarity so you can thrive in a fulfilling, purposeful life. I'm your host, Agi Keramidas, and this is episode 512 if you are looking to grow personally and professionally and better understand what's really holding you back. This conversation with Dr Ryan Gottfredson explores how shifting from doing better to being better can elevate every area of your life. By listening to this episode, you are going to discover the crucial difference between horizontal and vertical development and why, knowing it could change everything. You will understand how mindsets and trauma shape your potential more than any skill set can, and you will learn practical strategies to develop emotional resilience if you are doing all the right things but still feel stuck or frustrated, then this episode is for you. Before we dive in. If you resonate with these topics and feel like you're at a crossroads in your life, I offer one to one coaching focused on personal growth and mindset. My aim is to help you reconnect with your inner compass, enabling you to make confident and aligned decisions for the next chapter, whatever it may bring. If you are interested, get in touch using the link in the show notes, and let's have a conversation. And now let's get started. Today's guest is someone I had the pleasure of speaking on the podcast for just over five years ago, way back in episode four of the podcast, and I'm thrilled to welcome him back. Dr, Ryan Gottfredson, Ryan, you are a Wall Street Journal and USA Today, Best Selling Author, leadership development consultant and university professional. You are a leading expert on mindsets and vertical development, helping high achieving professionals and organisations elevate not just what they do, but who they are. You have your newest book, becoming better, which explores how true growth happens when we see from doing better to being better. Ryan, after this introduction, I'm really delighted to have you back after Wow. It's been such a long time.

Ryan Gottfredson: 3:03

Oh my goodness, yeah. And as you're saying this, I'm thinking, man, in the last five years, I mean, both of us are focused clearly on personal development, and in the last five years, I feel like I have a completely different person than who I was five years ago. And I imagine you say the same thing, and so it's fun to reconnect, and I'm looking forward to our conversation and some of the experiences we've had over the last five years. And I just imagine, and we're commenting just a little bit about this before we join on, is that you having this experience of having this podcast, is it's been a developmental journey for you and and so if you could say that you're a different person now than five years ago, and I could say that same thing, I mean, ultimately, I think that's what we want for our listeners, is we want them to, at a certain point in the future, a year or two years down the road, to be able to say I am a more elevated version of myself, so I appreciate you having this podcast, creating this platform to be able to have that impact in the lives of others.

Agi Keramidas: 4:07

Thank you very much. I also appreciate the work that you do in impacting and inspiring change in others. I will, I will share here, because I think it's relevant that I still remember our conversation, even though it's been five years and it was episode four, I still do remember you were talking about the mindsets, and there were four sets of mindsets, which was, you Know, a new concept for me at that time, and it has influenced me all these years. So taking this opportunity to thank you for giving me that knowledge at a very appropriate time five years ago,

Ryan Gottfredson: 4:57

so great to hear. I mean, that's that's one of the power. Of focusing on mindsets is, once we put labels to them, then we can focus on them. I mean, the reality is, is that our mindsets, for most of us, reside below the level of our consciousness, and most of us think that we have good mindsets, but that what I've come to find out isn't always the case, and I've had to learn that the hard way, for sure, but when we put labels to our mindsets, then it allows us and opens the door for us to be able to focus on those so I'm so happy to hear that's been a part of your journey, because it's surely been a part of mine.

Agi Keramidas: 5:31

Absolutely, absolutely today, Ryan, I will focus more than conversation, also with the opportunity of your new book on some concept, which is in some ways, I think it is not the usual personal development, because the personal development and doing as a verb, the doing Are go hand in hand in most people's minds, anyway, however you talk about doing better versus being better. So let's say, for someone who is not very familiar with this distinction, how would you explain it, and why does it matter so much? And let's keep it at the surface level for now, and we will go deeper in a moment.

Ryan Gottfredson: 6:26

Yeah, for sure. So what, what's really important for us to understand is there's two different sides of ourselves. And in fact, let me, let me bring up some examples. So maybe, maybe some of these will ring a bell with some of our listeners. So I'm gonna, I'm thinking about people like Michael Jackson, Ellen DeGeneres, Bill Clinton, Tiger Woods, Elizabeth Holmes, if you're in the leadership space, these are all people who have largely, kind of been at the pinnacle of their profession. They are incredibly talented individuals. They have great amount of knowledge, great amount of skills within the field in which they play with him, and so they and it's it's these talents and skills that have allowed them to reach the fame and the success that they've been able to reach. But I picked these people for a reason is that while they're incredibly talented, there's also controversy surrounding each of these individuals. And what's interesting about this is the controversy associated with these individuals doesn't have anything to do with their talent, knowledge, skills and abilities. It has something to do with something else. And this helps us to understand that there are two different sides of ourselves. There's our doing side, which is our talent, knowledge skills and our abilities, and there's what I call our being side. And our being side is more closely akin to our character, our psyche, our mindsets, our level of consciousness, our emotional regulation and and it, ultimately, it's it's how the quality by which our body's nervous system is wired for us to operate within our world. And so one of the things that I found, and I learned this the hard way, is that if we're feeling stuck or frustrated in our lives, it is usually we try to get out of it by focusing on improving our knowledge and our skills. But the reason why we're stuck and frustrated generally is not because of our knowledge skills and abilities. It's usually because of something connected to our being side. And so I imagine, for our listeners here today, that at least at some point in your life, you're here listening to this because you have been stuck or frustrated about where you have been. And if that's the case, because I've been there, it probably is more connected to your being side than your doing side. And ultimately, you're probably here because you want greater support and guidance to help you with your being side. And here's, here's, what I've learned is that most people just don't really know about their being side and aren't really connected to it.

Agi Keramidas: 9:17

Thank you. One thing that comes to mind. And I took a note about the someone being stuck in that more likely being connected to the being side rather than the doing side. I also realise what you said, that many people, when they do find themselves in a situation, they will learn more or do more. And I suppose it is also a culture that we are in some ways, you know, they call it the hustle. Yes, you do more and keep doing and I'm thinking of, you know, that person you mentioned earlier, who might feel be feeling stuck in some way. In their life. How can they recognise because the being side, it is a little bit more, let's say abstract, shall we say? Or it's not like an action list. It is something. You said emotional. You said psyche, not so easily describable in many people's minds anyway. So how can someone start to approach that or get that realisation that, okay, maybe it is not my doing that I'm feeling stuck. But something else, is there any sign anything that will help someone to see that for themselves?

Ryan Gottfredson: 10:41

Yeah. Well, let me give you an example of a lady that I did some coaching with not too long ago. So this, this lady is her, it was actually her boss that came to me, and he said, I'm kind of at my wit's end with this lady, and not wits end, but just, I want to help this lady progress in her career, and I have been unable to help her progress. And so he said, Would you be willing to coach her? And I said, yeah. So he sent me over an email connecting us, and she responded back, saying, here's when I'm available, and at the bottom of her email, there are a bunch of letters after her name, signifying different degrees that she has, and there's also these different like certificate logos that are beneath her name. And I'm thinking, Man, this is an incredibly she has invested a lot in her development. And so I was just thinking, seeing this email is what value am I going to add to this lady as as a coach. She's just done a lot of development work, and so as I got on the call with her, and I got to know her, what I learned is that she has been with this company for over 10 years, and every year she has been passed up for promotion into what she wants. She wants to be a leader. She wants to, you know, increase in her salary. She wants to move up in the organisation. And she has stayed stagnant. And so every year, when she gets passed up for promotion, she goes and gets a different degree on a different certificate. What she's doing is she's adding tools onto her tool belt. And that's good, all right. There's nothing wrong with that. But as I got to know her, what I came to realise is that she her being side has some fears and insecurities that are causing her to be more passive and reactive, as opposed to proactive and intentional and and that's a big signal that kind of helps us to feel into our being side is, is our level of reactivity are, are, are you familiar Agi with the term window of tolerance?

Agi Keramidas: 12:56

Feel free to explain it for sure. So our window

Ryan Gottfredson: 12:59

of tolerance is our band of cognitive and emotional control, and now when when we're feeling in an environment where fuel, safe, secure, we're going to operate at the highest levels of our cognitive and emotional control. But the more stress and pressure that we experience, the more our body's nervous system becomes a little bit more tense, and we start to increasingly lose our cognitive and emotional control and and so everybody, each of us, we all, have a window of tolerance. Now, some of us have a wider window of tolerance than others, and the wider our window of tolerance, our greater capacity to navigate change, pressure, stress, complexity and uncertainty and and what we're what I just found with this lady is that she has a very narrow window of tolerance. Now, all of her degrees and all of her certificates were great because it helped her gain more knowledge and more skills, but they didn't do anything to help her on her being side wide in her window of tolerance, help her to overcome her fears and insecurities so that she can be more intentional and proactive, as opposed to this passive and reactive individual.

Agi Keramidas: 14:16

And I will ask you in a minute about the window of tolerance and how we can start to increase it. Because basically that is, I think, in many ways, the key to all the other things. The more we increase that, the more ability we have to cope with life in a better way. That's my interpretation of what you I heard you say I would like, before we go there, to also mix this, or put in the mix the term of vertical development, which I think you have already implied by that. But can you explain that to us also? What is the connection? With the being part of us?

Ryan Gottfredson: 15:04

Yeah, and perfect timing for that question. So as we come to understand that we have a doing side and a being side, then it's easier for us to see that there's really two different ways that we could develop ourselves. We could develop ourselves on the doing side, and that's what's called horizontal development, that's adding new knowledge and skills and competencies to what we have. And this is the form of development that we all know and we are all familiar with, because it's the primary form of development for our education systems, our athletic programmes and most of our organisational development efforts is all focused on essentially adding more tools to our tool belt. But there's a different form of development, and that's called vertical development, and that's elevating along our being side. So vertical development isn't about adding tools to our tool belt, it's about upgrading the person wearing the tool belt and and this form of development. I mean, even this term vertical development, that's a fairly new term. It was only coined about 12 years ago, although the research behind it goes back to the 1960s this is kind of a new field of development that most people are not familiar with. But when we start to add terminology like this, vertical development being side it now allows us to be more intentional with our development efforts. And in fact, here's what I've learned, is that when people engage in horizontal development, it can be incrementally helpful at best, but if we want transformational development in ourselves, the only way we can get that is by focusing on the being side and engaging in vertical development efforts.

Agi Keramidas: 16:54

You use the phrase Elevate, and I like that phrase, so let's now that we have brought that into the mix. Let's talk about practically, because I think it is obvious, Ryan, to someone listening now what the horizontal development is. And keep on learning the toolbox, you know, the more knowledge and so on. Let's talk about ways that we can actually do this, the vertical development so and when I say ways, what I would really appreciate from you is practical way so actions that one can take, which they can lead to that. Let's start with that. So

Ryan Gottfredson: 17:44

I want to get into specific examples, but before I do so, let me articulate just kind of a broader guidance for us, sure. So I think if we want to elevate along our being side, it really takes three steps. The first step is we got to learn that we have a being side, and we got to learn what that being side is. So we've already started to do some of that. The second thing that we need to do is we need to be able to evaluate our altitude along our being side. Now there's a we've talked about different things that we could do. We could kind of get in touch to how reactive versus intentional we are the width of our window tolerance. We can also talk about the quality of our mindsets, because our mindsets are very much a being side characteristic. And there's a variety of other ways that we can assess this. And of course, I've got my new book coming out, becoming better, which dives into a variety of ways that we can assess the quality of or our altitude along our being side. So that's step number two, is we got to evaluate our current altitude and get clarity there. We got to deepen our self awareness. And then the third step is then actually doing the work of elevating. And so that's where your question is all about how what do we do? And here's how I like to think about it is that there's kind of three different levels of depth that we can engage in to do this effort. So I'm going to say that there's surface level efforts, there's deeper level efforts, and there's deepest level efforts. Is it okay if we kind of walk through those different layers? Sure, I

Agi Keramidas: 19:19

suppose the way you say that one needs to start at the higher level before going to the deepest one.

Ryan Gottfredson: 19:28

Well, I don't think you have to, but I think that's generally what most people do, right? So, so at the surface level, and in fact, I thought it was interesting as I was scrolling through your podcast here. As in preparation for this, I'm seeing some podcasts about kind of breathing, resetting your body, the Infinity wave was one of these, calm was, was a part of this. So I'm just kind of RE. Uh, I always forget how to pronounce it. Ikigai was one of these, right? So as I'm looking through these, all of these topics, which is interesting, I don't know if you picked up on this, but really all have to do with the being side and not the doing side, right? And and so some of these surface level being side efforts are things like meditation and breathing or self affirmations. Are some of these types of things. So these are surface level efforts that are designed, or if we harness them appropriately, they are designed to help us better regulate and become in control of our body's nervous system. And so those are some pretty basic efforts that we can engage in. In fact, in my book, when I talk about these surface level efforts, I use the example, and I'm sure many of your listeners are familiar with this book, but I use David Goggins as a primary example. So David Goggins wrote, can't hurt me. And also his next book never finished. And and in his books, he talks a lot about some of these surface level practices that he engaged in to elevate himself. And so those are some of those surface level exercises there. Does that make sense? Or do you want to add anything there?

Agi Keramidas: 21:25

No, no. Let's go to the next level. Then, Okay,

Ryan Gottfredson: 21:29

the next level. These deeper level strategies, to me, this is where kind of doing mindset work resides. So most people, as we kind of mentioned already, we all have mindsets, but most people aren't conscious of their mindsets, and our mindsets can range on a continuum between being more wired for self protection to being wired more for value creation. So for example, most people are familiar with fixed and growth mindsets. When we have a fixed mindset, our body is wired to always ensure that we look good. We only want to do the things we know we will be successful at. So we tend to steer away from Learning Zone challenges, and that protects us in the short term. So it is a self protective mindset, and it's justifiable, because it's uncomfortable to take on Learning Zone challenges. But People with a growth mindset, they have a wider window of tolerance for discomfort, and that allows them to be more willing to step into learning zone challenges, step into that initial discomfort because of the benefit that they're going to get in the long term of greater learning, growth and development, which allows them to be a greater value creator. So fixing growth mindsets are one set of mindsets that we could investigate, and as you alluded to and with my book success mindsets, I talk about other sets of mindsets, but when we identify and focus on our mindsets, this is now a deeper level of vertical development, because we are getting more precise focus on how our body's internal operating system is wired, and when we could get that precise focus, it's almost like we could be more surgical in our development efforts. So that's the deeper level. Do you have anything to add before we jump down to the deepest level, the

Agi Keramidas: 23:37

way that you have broken them down on the now I'm starting to understand the different levels, the way you say it, and I the actions, like, you know, practising meditation or doing some what you're saying. David Goggins, you know what he says as or affirmations, all these things as a surface level, and I'm trying to get to go somewhere with with all this, but the mindsets, which is it's clearly something much more internal. It is not an action. It is a way of seeing things internally. I suppose just by that, I can imagine what comes next at the deepest level, but I will, I will leave that to for you to say it.

Ryan Gottfredson: 24:33

Yeah, so here's everything that we've talked about. Right is that our being side is very much intertwined with our body's nervous system and how our nervous system is prone to make meaning of our world, right? So we have some programming built into our operating system, and one of the ways that we can discover our programming is through if then statements. Such as, if I get constructive criticism, then my body does, what does it get defensive? That's more self protective? Or does it create space to listen? Right? So, so that's, that's kind of a continuum that might be a little bit revealing of our being. Side Altitude now, now. So when we focus on our being side, we want to get in touch to our automatic programming. Now, what shapes our automatic programming? Well, I've kind of learned that there's three primary factors that shape our body's internal operating system and how it is programmed to operate. One factor is trauma. What I've learned is that the more trauma one experiences in their life, the more their body's nervous system becomes wired for self protection. It's our body's natural reaction to trauma. The second thing that shapes our body's Nervous System Programming is our current culture. What are the incentives in our environment? What are the pressures are in our environment? Right? So when I when I work with organisations and leaders or employees, are incentivized to hit certain outcomes by a certain date, and to do so better than others, that oftentimes fosters competition, that makes people wired more for self protection as opposed to value creation. So that's the second one. So we've got trauma, we've got culture, and then the third factor is different variations of neuro divergency. So one of the things that we've learned is that people who are have some neuro divergences. This includes things like ADHD dyslexia and others, that part of the brain wiring associated with those neuro divergences causes one's internal operating system to be more wired for self protection as opposed to value creation. And so ultimately, the reason why I bring up these three factors is because these deepest level strategies are more designed to address these factors. So at the deepest level, some of the work that we might need to do is we might need to work with a therapist to heal from our past trauma. We might need to receive some for example, for ADHD, one of the things that I've learned is that Neurofeedback therapy is a form of therapy that is really effective of helping people rewire their brains such that their ADHD doesn't affect them as as much as it would otherwise. And then even even beyond this, and I'm trying to get my eyes and ears to the ground on this is there's some recent research that is effectively finding that psychedelic assisted therapy is one of the most effective forms of therapy to help people to rewire their internal operating system. So so the I'm to your point that you asked earlier, I'm not going to suggest that people start here, but it's often a place where most of us need to go if we ultimately want to become the best version of ourselves. I mean, I've had to get there. I've worked with a trauma therapist for over two years. My wife was recently diagnosed with ADHD, you know, kind of as a mid adult, and that's actually what we're finding, is when most people are diagnosed with ADHD, is most adults don't even know they have ADHD and they they're starting to get diagnosed in their 30s and 40s. And my wife engaged in Neurofeedback therapy, and she said it was game changing for her. So these are some of the examples of some of these deepest level strategies.

Agi Keramidas: 28:59

Thank you. And what I would like to, you know, add to this. And it was, it was one of the titles of the chapters in your book that immediately caught my attention, because it has been my own personal realisation, especially the last few years, that everything else, all the strategies, the tools, all the things that you can use, you talk about the window of tolerance, all these things before you apply any of that, you have to have the self awareness. And that was the title of the chapter, the self awareness to, you know, step out of the you were taking the automatic programming or and you know, most of people are in that mode, but hopefully not all the time, but most of the time. And there are few times that they. Is the the self awareness. And I was reading a very nice definition that you I think it was from Stephen COVID as a self awareness, the ability to stand apart from oneself and examine motives, habits and tendencies. I really like that because from personal experience, also Ryan, I have noticed that it is when my self awareness leaves me that, you know, my window of tolerance becomes more like I do not operate in the way that I would like to. And I think it is also what you're saying the programme in all the other factors that have trauma and so on. So I would like a comment from you also on self awareness, because I think it is, you know, in a way, a prerequisite to be able to do the, you know, the vertical or to elevate. Like, yeah, if you agree,

Ryan Gottfredson: 31:01

well, I couldn't agree more. So here's what's interesting about this. And I don't know if any of the listeners are familiar with Tasha uric she has a great TED talk on self awareness, and in her TED Talk, she's done research on self awareness, and what she reports is that 95% of people think that they are self aware. Yes, that doesn't surprise me at all. And then what she says is that while 95% of people think that they are self aware, only 10 to 15% are actually self aware. And and I what makes sense to me is that most of us think that we're self aware because we understand our doing side, but it's actually impossible to be self aware if we don't know our being side. And so I think that in order for us to truly be self aware, we have got to become intimately familiar with our being side, which revolves around understanding and getting connected with our motives, our habits, our tendencies, our scripts, our mindsets, right? Because all of these things are connected to how our body's internal operating system is wired or programmed to operate. And here's what we've learned, 90% of our thinking, feeling, judging and acting is driven by our non conscious automatic processing by our internal operating system. So we like to think that we're in cognitive and rational control, but the reality is, we're not. Almost everything that we do is dictated by the quality of our internal operating system. So if we aren't connected to it, if we aren't aware of it, if we haven't tried to understand its wiring, then at the end of the day, it's going to be impossible for us to be self aware. But if we can become aware, that's half the battle, right? And that's the first half of the battle is we got to become self aware, then the second half of the battle is actually doing the development work. But we've got to start with that awareness piece for

Agi Keramidas: 33:04

sure. Thank you. That's, that's great. I got the first the upgrade our internal operating system, which is very appropriate, I think, as a term, Ryan as I will start wrapping this conversation up, first, I want to ask, Where can the listener connect more with you and find out more and about the book for sure? Of course, yeah,

Ryan Gottfredson: 33:32

best place to learn about me and connect with me is my website. Ryangottson.com of course, you're going to be able to find my book on the website, and then you could hopefully buy that book wherever you're located, Amazon or elsewhere. And then, of course, I'm on all social media platforms. I'm most active on LinkedIn, and would love to connect with anybody there.

Agi Keramidas: 33:54

Thank you. I really enjoyed our this conversation. There were so many things that were very important here. I have made quite a lot of notes here on what you were saying. One thing that I just picked now looking at my notes, was that evaluation of the when we start the vertical development to evaluate where we are on that scale. So it's something that I found interesting. Well, let

Ryan Gottfredson: 34:25

me if it's okay, let me just add in. And I should have mentioned this when I talked about my website. But on my website, I have two self assessments. One is called the vertical development assessment, and another is called the personal mindset assessment. And both of these are effective tools that help us to connect with the quality of our being side. So if anybody's out there, they want to a really quick way to connect to their being side. Both of these are about five minute assessments, is all but can lead to some really eye opening discoveries. I'm

Agi Keramidas: 34:58

very glad I mentioned it. Then we're. Because I think that's important. That's something that can, you know, make someone is more easily go to a website because of this. Thank you, Ryan. I want to wish you all the very best with your work, changing people's lives and expanding their ability to live a more. I will use the word purposeful. You didn't use that word yourself, but I like that phrase. I will leave it to you for your final part in wisdom for today.

Ryan Gottfredson: 35:37

Well, no, thank you and appreciate I mean, it's just so great to have partners like you where, I mean, we're we're both out here in the world trying to help people to become better, and and I'll just reiterate what I mentioned earlier is I think most people know how to do better, but most people actually don't know how to become better. And so I hope our conversation has helped people to better understand how to do that.

Agi Keramidas: 36:06

Thank you for listening to this conversation with Ryan Gottfredson. I hope it has given you a fresh perspective on what it truly means to grow, not just by doing more, but by becoming more if you have been resonating with these conversations and feel like you are at a crossroads in your life, I offer one to one coaching to help you gain clarity and step into your next chapter with confidence. If that sounds interesting, reach out to me using the link in the show notes, and let's have a conversation until next time stand out. Don't fit in .